In this insightful episode of the MFGMonkey Podcast, we dive into the critical role of culture fit in recruitment with expert Whitney Hahn. As organizations strive to build cohesive and effective teams, understanding the impact of cultural alignment becomes essential. Whitney shares her expertise on how to identify and prioritize culture fit during the hiring process, offering practical tips and strategies for recruiters and business leaders alike. Whether you’re involved in talent acquisition or interested in organizational culture, this conversation provides valuable insights to enhance your recruitment approach.
How to Get in Touch with Whitney Hahn
If you’re interested in learning more about Provoke Better or connecting with Whitney Hahn, you can reach him via the Provoke Better website:
- Website: ProvokeBetter.com
- Contact Through Website: Fill out the contact form on the Provoke Better site, and Whitney or a member of his team will follow up.
- https://www.linkedin.com/in/whitneyhahn/
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The Importance of Culture Fit in Recruitment with Whitney Hahn
The conversation between Dustin McMillan and Whitney Hahn covers the topic of recruitment and the importance of culture fit in hiring. They discuss the significance of having a strong company culture and how it can attract the right candidates. They also emphasize the negative impact of toxic employees and clients on the overall culture and productivity of the organization. The conversation delves into the need for self-reflection and personal growth to create a positive work environment. They also touch on the importance of conveying culture and mission alignment in recruitment ads and videos.
Whitney Hahn, how are you?
I’m great Dustin, how are you?
I’m doing very well. Thank you so much for joining me today. It’s going to be fun.
It’s always fun. I love talking about this stuff.
Yeah, so do I. That’s why I’m a nerd sitting in my house doing Podcasts. I don’t know. I’ve found it fun over the last several years.
I’m glad it’s because you find it fun and not because you’re stuck in your house as part of your witness protection program or, okay, never mind.
I’m not going to talk about that.
We’ll just talk about that.
Yeah, undisclosed location, undisclosed location.
Fair.
I think it’s interesting. We kind of chatted before and one of the big topics today is recruitment and how to recruit and what to do and what not to do. And I think so many of us struggle with finding good people and we have a huge and you know, it’s part of our culture. We will wait to hire the right person rather than just hiring a body because we need somebody.
I agree with that. Yeah, you should have the right person. Absolutely.
Yeah. So, culture is number one for us. And if we have to wait, we wait.
I think it’s really responsible for you to have that sort of perspective. Culture is huge.
Yep.
And I don’t think it’s, although we’ve talked about it a lot across lots of industries, I still think many companies don’t fully appreciate what that means when you say, well, I’ve got good culture. Does it mean I’ve got a ping-pong table in the break room?
Right.
Does it mean I allow you to flex hours? Does it mean I say please and thank you? Like, what is it actually?
Yeah.
You have to have a good sense of what your culture is for you to convey that culture in your recruiting and then become a magnet for those right-fit candidates.
Yeah, and if your culture is correct, all of your people are the best because they want to interview folks coming in because they don’t want somebody coming from the outside interrupting or being a cancer and ruining their culture.
Yeah, I think we’ve unfortunately all been in an organization where there’s a hot-shot clown. Can I say that on your show?
That’s awesome. I love it. Yeah
And if you don’t know that person, you may have been that person.
Yeah.
But you know, it’s somebody that even though they may be highly skilled or highly effective at making a sale or making the thing if they’re just a nuisance to work with,
Yeah.
It’s really destructive.
Yeah, I have a buddy that they have a sales guy that’s been with them for years, he makes over a million dollars a year and he does obviously well, but he comes in and everyone cringes, he like sucks the oxygen right out of the office and he’s like, he goes, what do we do with this guy? You know, he’s been with us for 40 years or whatever, he’s just old and grouchy and everybody just pisses everyone off. Well, the sales aren’t going away, or very few of them are. So, my suggestion was to get rid of the guy.
I think you’re correct. I think there’s a way to teach the best structures or frameworks that a successful salesperson might need to be successful in sales while eliminating the destructive aspects of that individual’s personality.
Yeah, and I self-admittedly had to go through some of that because that’s how grew up, was in sales and I would become a nightmare if things didn’t happen in the timeframe that I thought that they should happen in. And it was through a lot of self-reflection and just understanding myself that there’s, it’s better to handle things with butter than guns. And you get a lot more done with sugar. So, I definitely went through that period in my life where I was just crazy driven and if somebody was going to mess up my paycheck, I was not okay with it. But I also became, I wasn’t good for the company in the same aspect.
It takes a great deal of self-reflection and awareness to catch that in yourself. And I applaud you for doing that. And again, that’s work that a lot of people won’t do. And a lot of companies, including ones with otherwise very strong HR departments, just seem afraid to touch.
Yeah.
And I’m still not exactly sure why because there’s a mounting body of evidence about how destructive it really is.
Oh yeah. Absolutely.
I think of what is happening at its core, Dustin is we’re giving up as a company. We’re giving up what we want most, a healthy, productive, engaged culture for what we want now, which in our example so far has been somebody who can sell a million dollars a year.
Yeah. Absolutely.
And so, it’s really endangering the long-term health and sustainability of the organization when that’s left unchecked.
Yeah, and anytime you get blinded by the dollars and you ignore happiness, I don’t care what you’re doing, you could be cutting hair. And if you’re cutting some hair just because you want the money and you don’t get rid of that cancer of a client, then your long-term happiness is just going to be affected. Same thing with customers. We’ve gotten rid of customers because they just suck the energy out of everyone. It’s like, okay, we’re good. We don’t need to do business with you.
Yeah.
And yeah, and that’s part of the culture too.
It is. And that is one of the most powerful things that you can do. If you can quote unquote fire a customer that just sucks the life out of you. I remember years ago, I had one of these customers. He was always trying to renegotiate the contract, even in the middle of the project. He was generous with criticism but stingy with praise.
Oh yeah.
And it got to be where I would see his name and phone number show up on the caller ID and I could feel my blood pressure rise even before I answered the call.
And you’re like, oh. Yeah.
And I said to myself at that moment, was like, Whitney, this is not a healthy relationship.
Yap.
You need to end this with as much grace and professionalism as possible and you need to do it soon.
Yeah.
So, we had a bit of a heart-to-heart where I wasn’t mean. I just said, we’re not able to do our best work for you. So, we’re going to finish this project. We’re going to package up all your files and make sure that you have them to give to the next person who takes care of you. We didn’t want to handcuff him in any way and did a bless and release basically back into the ecosystem because it just wasn’t working.
Sure. Yeah. Yeah.
How long did it take you to come to that decision to let him go?
When I realized when I made the association that even seeing his number on the caller ID caused my blood pressure to rise It happened not in that conversation but the very next conversation.
Good.
And I just said this has to end and I took a few days to figure out how I wanted to end it professionally politely.
Yeah. Sure.
And then I proactively reached out and said here’s what’s going to happen.
That’s awesome. We have the same group of friends we have a woman and she self-made has a marketing company. They’re crushing it and she self admittedly hasn’t been able to find a Positive woman that’s in her same like sea level Arena that she can talk to about those things as a friend and she’s been I want to use the word needy and she’s going not going to like it. You know, she found this woman that she met with and the very first meeting, this lady tears her apart and is being supercritical and toxic. And then, you know, she was talking to us about that and they’re like, and you’re still talking to this woman? She’s like, well, yeah, because I thought that I could fix her. Then she’s brought a couple of clients to us and they’re just as bad as she is. And like, you got to get rid of this whole clan and she was like, what’s that doing to your team? They’re like, my team hates dealing with everyone. And I’m like, you know, that’s part of the culture too. And I think if she would keep them on, she would have people start questioning, you know, what she’s doing. And I know that I would, and it’s like keeping a bad employee, right?
Yes.
If you’re willing to put up with some person’s BS, it’s going to affect everyone.
Yeah, exactly. I love that you brought that up, Dustin because it is another area that we often don’t highlight.
Mm-hmm.
We’ll put up with that destructive, depleting employee. We’ll put up with a destructive, depleting client.
Right.
But then we look at our core team, the people that we count on to get work done day in and day out, the people we count on to have our backs if we’re in leadership or at the top of the, near the top of the organization.
Right.
And we say, but you got to put up with this garbage too. What we should be doing is being the shield against that sort of nonsense.
Yeah.
We should be protecting the people that we count on to have our back every day instead of asking them to come through the mud with us just to get the money that’s on the other side.
Yap.
I mean, we cannot prostitute our teams like that and expect that they’re going to rise to the occasion and be Cinderella.
Right. Yeah.
It just doesn’t happen that way. It’s a ridiculous expectation and it needs to stop.
Yeah, and I can’t agree more and you have to cut it out swiftly. I mean, you just have to. And we’ve had to do it, unfortunately, where we’ve brought somebody in and we’re like, okay, we can coach this person up. We’re about building people up too. You don’t have to be perfect. But quickly, if they become toxic and everyone just doesn’t enjoy life, then they have to go quickly.
Definitely, definitely. I’ve been in a leadership role at many organizations, pretty much my entire adult professional life.
Yeah.
I’m just a natural leader. Some people would say bossy, but I’m not going to say that. I’m going to choose to say, natural leader. And I can teach almost anybody, almost any skill that they’re curious about learning.
Sure.
But I have got to be honest with you, I have yet to be the sort of person who can make somebody who is just a bad apple at the core change into a good person.
Yeah.
If you’re somebody who is just toxic, if you have an unhealthy level of competition, if you come into my workplace with a me versus them mentality towards your coworkers, I have to succeed and for me to succeed means you have to fail. If it’s all about me, I don’t know how to manage away from that. Like that person would need to do perhaps what you did and self -reflect and that change has to come from within.
Yeah. And I, there’s like four different things I wanted to say, and they all meshed, and then poof. Yes, I can’t agree more. One of the things that was kicking around in my head as I watched a clip on a TV show, Undercover Boss, have you seen that?
Yeah, it’s a great show.
Great. Yeah, it’s a wonderful show and I was just going through and it’s very applicable to what we’re talking about right now. There’s like a three-part series on social media that I was stuck on. And this girl was the most toxic person that I’ve ever seen in a workplace. She was criticizing customers who were coming in. She was criticizing coworkers, the undercover boss, and the CEO of this whole franchise. She was criticizing him to the point that he walked out early, and she made fun of him on his way out of the door. And then in the final clip or whatever, they approached her and brought the franchise owner in. And somehow the franchise owner was completely oblivious of how she treated everyone.
Wow.
And not only that, but she was also in complete denial that she was doing anything wrong at all whatsoever. And it’s how, if you will watch the video if she watches the video and she’s still in denial, how do you get past that? Or does she ever? She is just a bitter person for the rest of her life who live alone with 17 cats. I don’t know.
She may be a bitter person for the rest of her life.
Yeah.
And I would like to think that individuals like that can be rehabilitated if you will.
Sure.
However, they are the ones that have to start it. You know, we’re getting into a wider conversation about personalities and how set they are or how flexible they are.
Yeah. Absolutely. Yep.
But I think it’s safe to say that any significant change like that has to come from within.
Yeah.
If you have a set point of scarcity, you’re going to operate from scarcity. If you have a set point of negative competition, you’re going to operate from that set point. And so, you will need to marinate that person, a person like that, I should say, will need to marinate in a whole lot of different mindsets in order to grow a different set of habits.
Yeah. And it’s, you know, the other end of psychology is nobody can make yourself happy except for you.
Yes.
And if you’re just a mean, bitter, upset, vindictive person and you don’t see that there’s anything wrong with it, then you’re just going to stay that way.
Man, I was not expecting the deep dive into the soul with you today, Dustin. I thought we were going to talk about recruitment for the market for manufacturers.
Me either, yeah, we’re getting there. We’re getting there.
Okay.
Yeah, sometimes I scroll out and go down a rabbit hole and it’s, I don’t know, that’s what it’s about, right?
Being human.
Very good. Did we lose some audio?
I didn’t notice any loss.
Yeah, I just lost your audio.
One, two.
Yeah, and don’t see, there’s like usually a little thing that shows me that you’re, there you go.
Right. Check one.
Yeah, there we go.
Okay.
Yeah, we got it back. I did a podcast yesterday and we had like four different technical issues and like five of those four were mine. And I like didn’t have like one little switch turned on. But anyway, I guess we can kind of get back on track here with recruiting and how you see that process and how you coach others to recruit.
Recruitment, as you’ve set a beautiful stage for, really is about culture fit and also mission fit. You know if we went back almost 100 years coming out of the Great Depression, for example, when jobs were scarce, you could probably offer to pay somebody and spit insults and four-day-old bread, and there’d still be a line for that available job. But we’re not in that environment now.
Yeah.
And in fact, if you go back 10 years or 15 years to when the unemployment rate was still not at depression levels, but higher than we would like levels, a lot of competition for jobs. And so, you could put out an ad that said, we start at $17 an hour and a manufacturing company across town could put out an ad for a similar job and say, pay $17 and 10 cents an hour. And you’d be trying to get people to apply for your open positions based on simply the hourly rate.
Yeah.
Those times have passed, Dustin, but many organizations are still advertising in the same way.
Right.
What you need to do instead is really put out culture and mission fit and then back it up. Excuse me.
Quick edit there.
Yeah.
What we need to be doing is putting out our ads based on culture and mission fit and then backing it up with competitive salary and benefits packages.
That’s a very interesting thought. I don’t even know what platforms we need to put recruitment out, LinkedIn, Indeed maybe. But are you able to upload a video on any of those platforms? I mean, LinkedIn, obviously we could upload a video of the hiring manager talking about different things or do a recruiting video that would talk about those things.
Yes.
You certainly could. And a lot of the sites like ZipRecruiter and Indeed, at a minimum, you can put a hyperlink to videos that help you explain the culture, fit, and mission of the organization as well. But let me come back to that part in a moment, because I have a great example from a beer manufacturer who did that at a not-safe-for-work level, but is so, so fun and effective.
Okay, perfect.
Before you get people to watch the video though, you have got to think about the headline that you use for the ads. So again, going back to the example, if you’re saying $17 an hour, $17.10, $17.10 an hour, $17.25 an hour, and that’s your headline, you’re going to be getting people who are only interested in the starting salary or a 90-day bonus or something like that.
Yeah. Yeah.
And what do you think is going to happen then as soon as your cross-town rival puts the same ad out? With another $100 as the signing bonus and another 12 cents an hour on top of the hourly rate. That employee is going to jump job for the next highest paycheck. There’s no loyalty to you because you haven’t given them any reason to be loyal to the culture or the mission of the organization. Why are we surprised when they jump?
Yeah. I have a buddy who owns a large manufacturing company, and he shops at the same Kroger as ever, you know, most of his employees. He’s like, do you think the Japanese company down the street, their CEO is talking to you in the bread aisle for 20 minutes or, saying hi, or they know your name, they want you to wear, you know, a certain outfit every day and they don’t want you to talk to anyone and they just want you to be a robot. And that means so much to him in that area because they are one of the most economical backbones. And everyone knows that this guy knows their name and it’s not made up. And it’s really neat to watch him walk the floor. And he got to the point of being CEO. He’s like, my job is just recruitment and making sure our culture is good. He’s like, we have people that read PNLs and make sales decisions. Figured tooling out and all that stuff. He’s like, my most important job is making sure we have good people. And I thought that was pretty profound.
I think he’s absolutely right too.
Yeah. Sure.
I’m sure he has other responsibilities in terms of setting long-term vision and things like that.
Yeah, absolutely.
At the same time, I think many CEOs haven’t done what this individual has done, and recognizing them setting up a good company culture, and engaging with the employees at all levels is also a critical part of being a really effective CEO.
Right.
Yeah. And that’s probably the most important long-term vision you can have, is your people.
Definitely. We’re automating more and more. Somebody still has to program the automation.
Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. The automation that we’re doing is getting rid of the hourly wage type of a person that’s only there for the $17 an hour or the $17.25 an hour. But you’re bringing on a more sophisticated person who can program and make sure it’s up and running and troubleshoot when it goes down and all those things.
Right. Exactly. And if they’re not engaged with your company, not just a company that does a similar thing, then we shouldn’t be surprised when they go get a competitive offer and get…
We’re losing your audio again Whitney.
Okay. How about that?
There you go. Yeah. It keeps coming out and I see this little, see when I’m talking, there’s like the little bouncing thing. I hope you can see the same thing I can.
I do. Yeah.
Sometimes when you’re talking, I can’t hear you when that is not bouncing.
All right, let me just double-check and make sure I’ve got everything turned off and shut down on other stuff that doesn’t need to be there.
I thought at first it was like maybe my headphones like the wire, or something got kinked and then I’m like, her little like I’m talking now thing isn’t bouncing at the bottom. And again, I’m not really worried about it. Luke will cut all this gibberish out.
Thank you, Luke, wherever you are.
So yeah, thanks, Luke.
Listen has now made the promises you need to keep.
Yeah. Or we’ll keep it in because it makes it that much more real. I don’t know.
Where would you like to go back to, Dustin?
Yeah. So, it seems to be working now. So maybe there’s something weird going on, but I don’t know. We’re good. We kind of we’re on a really good roll there. But yeah, just what are some of the other things that companies can do to make sure that they’re conveying culture before somebody even applies?
Well, let me take it a step back further even from there, and talk about mission alignment.
Okay.
Helping, excuse me, when you’re able to help an employee see how they will succeed in your company, not just how you are.
Now I can’t hear you and your thing is bouncing. Let me make sure my headphones are plugged in all the way.
All right. Thank you.
Alright. I have a couple of different places that I record. This is the first time I’ve used this set of headphones. Maybe there’s something going on.
Maybe, I don’t know.
Maybe.
Let me go back there.
Yep.
Before we talk about culture a little bit more, let me take one step back to talk about mission alignment.
Okay.
We need to make sure that the employee understands how he or she will succeed when they come to work at our company, rather than merely thinking about and talking about how the company will succeed because the employee is there. And I’ve got a real-life example to show you how this works. A few years ago, Provoke Better worked with a steel manufacturer. They needed welders and fitters like pretty much every steel manufacturer ever since the history of time has needed. And they were in an area of the country that had two other major steel manufacturers in basically the same town, super close proximity. So, the job force was pretty small and the competition for really well-qualified welders and fitters was high. So, I did an analysis, I assessed their ads versus their competitor’s ads. I assessed their glass door reviews versus their competitors, which of course is where your employees can comment as to whether or not you’re a good employer or not. And what I found was that pretty much everybody was talking about the same stuff, this $17.00 an hour, $17.50 an hour. $500.00 signing bonus, $600.00 signing bonus type stuff. It wasn’t getting them any place.
Still good to go?
Yeah. For whatever reason, I am not hearing you, but it looks like it’s recording. So, I was just letting you go. I’m not really sure. Let me try a different channel in case it’s something weird, but I can hear myself talk through my headphones without a problem. I’m not sure. I’m not sure why. What’s going on? I did read that Riverside was having some glitches. So maybe that’s what we’re dealing with. I don’t want to blame it on somebody else, but it’s weird that I can hear myself fine, but I can’t hear you, but I can see that you’re talking and it’s like coming in and out. At first, I thought since I couldn’t hear or couldn’t see your little thing bouncing, it was me. But now
Okay.
I don’t see mine. Mine bouncing when I talk but you can hear me right?
Maybe stop the recording and check the playback? Yes.
Okay, just a second sorry.
Okay.
Alright, I just changed the channel and maybe that will work. You can still hear me?
Yes, I can.
Okay. I can’t hear you.
Well, that’s not going to be helpful.
I’m not sure what is going on.
Hmm.
Check one, two, three.
I’m kind of at a loss for what to do here. I’ve never had this happen.
That’s all right.
So yeah.
Do you want to stop the recording and check some playback?
Let’s try sending a chat and that’s.
Well, you can hear me, so I guess I don’t have to send you a chat, do I?
Yes.
Well, what is going on? I almost want to stop it. It’ll keep all recording. Log out, log back in, and see if that helps for some reason. I’m really apologetic about this.
Okay, let’s try it.
Let’s log out and then come back in and see if that’s about the end of my IT skills.
It’s totally okay.
All right, third time’s a charm, I think. So, you were saying some pretty, pretty awesome stuff that I think was getting recorded, but I couldn’t hear and you were on your roll. So, let’s try to pick it up there.
I’ll start that story over again about the steel manufacturer that I work with so you have the full context for going forward.
Perfect. Thank you.
Let me rewind in my head. Let me pick it up there. And Luke, you’re going to have extra credit. Extra serving of tater tots for Lucas, he thinks man.
I like tater tots.
Who doesn’t? Dustin, maybe it’d be helpful if I gave you an example from a manufacturer that Provoke Better worked with for recruiting just a few years ago.
Absolutely.
Okay, so the manufacturer works in the steel industry and their main location is in the same city with two other steel manufacturers. So, competition for talent is very high. They’re looking for welders and fitters.
Okay.
Welders and fitters, welders and fitters like all day long are what they need. So, the first thing we did was analyze their ads versus their competitor’s ads. And we saw exactly what you and I have been talking about in today’s conversation. $17.00 an hour versus $17.50 an hour, whatever it is, $500.00 signing bonus, $600.00 signing bonus. I mean, we just slap a new number on it, run the ad again, and see if you can get any new talent. And it wasn’t working. Shocker, right?
Right.
Hold on to your hat, because that was not working. And so, we said, all right, let’s make sure that we understand what your ideal employee really cares about when they come to work for your company, not just any steel manufacturer. Why this one, not anyone? And that’s the first question that I want any organization to ask themselves. Why does this individual, this candidate, want to work here, not just anywhere?
Very good.
And so, to get to the core of that ideal employee mindset, we asked real employees what they loved about the company. Why did you choose to work here? You’ve got competition right across town who I’m sure would be happy to have somebody with your career experience. Why don’t you leave?
Right.
And through those conversations, we heard a couple of things. We heard about career advancement. We heard about a sense of camaraderie they had with a buddy that they kind of grew up together in the industry. That’s very powerful as well. But that’s hard to replicate. And so, we were listening for something that would be attractive to somebody who was qualified but wanted a new mission. Somebody who could see themselves being successful in this organization, not just any organization. Someone who aligned with what this company was trying to, in their case, quite literally, build. Because this steel manufacturer had done some very high-profile jobs. Now, for reasons of honoring non-disclosure and things like that, can’t be too specific.
Sure.
But they would be buildings you would recognize. It’s the wing of a major airport. It’s the wing of a children’s hospital. It’s a huge sports arena in a major southern city.
Okay.
It’s a skyrise in downtown Manhattan.
Okay.
During one of the interviews, one of the employees did something that really seemed to encapsulate this core mission idea. He said, sometimes I will drive home a different way just so I can look at the buildings that we’ve been working on.
That’s cool.
And that sense of pride and craftsmanship, Dustin, that is mission.
Yeah, absolutely.
That is how this craft person, this welder fitter felt successful, felt like they were the hero of their own story.
Yep.
And so, we completely rewrote their recruitment campaign, not to talk about starting salaries and finding bonuses, but to talk about how they could be part of building the structures that define cities and skylines for generations.
Yeah, that’s outstanding.
That was like impossible right?
Yeah. Well, and you know that that same person he takes a different way home, but he’s also either, if he has a family, he’s driving his family around showing his wife or daughter, son, or maybe he’s not, but he’s still driving his buddies around and going, hey, I built that.
Yes.
I have a part of that. I worked on that floor or whatever it was. Yeah. That’s super cool.
It is that sense of mission that you need to tap into for recruitment and it works equally well for manufacturers as it does for nonprofit organizations, as it does for a retail store.
Absolutely.
My mom and dad run their own business too. They’re in their early eighties. They’re still running their own business. Frankly, I give them grief every chance I get. Like, are you guys going to retire sometime soon? Because I will eventually want to retire and it’s going to be really bad for me if I retire before you do. So, can we just talk about that?
Right.
And what they do, this is a true story. My family owns a zoo.
Okay.
Yeah. So those are my monkeys. This is my zoo.
Can you tell us what zoo?
Yeah, sure. It’s the Kentucky Wildlife Preserve just outside of Washington DC.
That’s outstanding. That’s really cool.
Built in 1966.
Wow.
An incredible experience.
Yeah.
But I tell you what, if you want to recruit somebody to work in animal care at a zoo and your ad says, you will shovel poop all day. You will go home smelling like all sorts of things that you cannot explain.
Right.
You work when it’s extremely hot. You will work when it’s extremely cold. And you’re never going to make a million dollars. You will not have people lined up for that.
Sure.
You have to tap into a mission.
Yeah, absolutely.
So instead, you’re saying, you know, I’m not hiring for poop scoopers, which honestly is a huge part of the job in animal care.
Yeah.
It’s a lot of cleaning, it’s a lot of carrying heavy buckets of water and grain, and so on.
I can only imagine.
But if you don’t talk about that, although that’s part of the job. But you align with the mission of helping protect and preserve these endangered species from all around the world and introduce guests to these animal ambassadors.
Yeah.
Having a different conversation.
Yeah, absolutely. And that’s probably, I mean, you can pour more, more emotional heartstrings with the zoo than you can a welder.
I disagree. I disagree because that guy we just described who is going to be super happy taking his family, taking his buddies past the wing of the Children’s Hospital, and through that sports arena that we talked about, that person would not be mission-aligned, culturally aligned, probably, right?
True.
To protect endangered species. And that’s the point.
Yeah.
A great recruitment campaign needs to be a magnet to the right candidates but repel the wrong candidate. It has to do both.
Well, and I think yeah, in that situation, if the wrong person comes to the table, they’re not going to be comfortable.
Right.
I wouldn’t think maybe. I mean, if somebody is like, I really don’t mind about being a part of something bigger, and I want the $20.00 an hour instead of 17. They’re going to ask that question in interview one, how much? Okay, that’s great. But how much am I getting paid? How much time off do I get on day one?
Right.
They’re going to start asking all the wrong questions that you can weed that person out pretty quickly, I would think.
Yeah, exactly. I mean, let’s be honest, the organizations still have to be competitive with salaries.
Yeah.
Can’t expect people to just not be able to meet their own needs because they’re so mission-aligned and willing to give up everything. However, if you’re able to meet their needs financially and your mission align and your culture align. That is somebody who is going to grow with your organization and help your organization grow in return. And that is what we’re looking for.
Yeah.
That’s the perfect match.
Absolutely. And I’m sure you know the answer to this question, but where does salary or pay come in on a scale of one to 10 of importance to a team member?
Well, I have less data on where that plays in recruiting and more data on where it plays in retention.
Okay.
And it’s about third or fourth on the list.
Yeah.
When employees are asked after exit why they exited, it’s usually not about salary as one of the top three answers. That usually comes up at four or five. The top three have to do with exactly what we’ve been talking about, poor culture fit, poor leadership, or miscommunication of expectations.
Yeah. And I can see that if you think you’re hired for one job and you’re doing another, then you probably get frustrated pretty easily.
Well, yeah, because you thought you were going to be successful doing a certain thing.
Yeah.
And in fact, then thing changes, and you can’t be as successful.
Right.
We have to remember that employees, all of us, want to be the hero of our own story. If we don’t feel we can be a hero, we don’t want to be a victim.
Yeah.
And so that’s when we’re going to leave that organization.
Yeah. I can certainly see that. And it would be interesting to understand the data behind recruitment and where salary falls in just because I’m a geek and I would like to know that. And I would be willing to bet a large sum of money. That’s not number one.
I would think that you’re right. I think that you’re right. I think salary is probably a high motivator for short-term jobs. If I’m just looking for a summer gig, I can put up with anything for three months before I go back to school.
Yeah.
You’re looking at entry-level jobs or something like that. If I’m brand new to the city and I just need to find a job quickly because I have immediate expenses, that’s when I’m going to go for the job that meets my immediate financial needs.
Yeah.
But if you’re in an industry, like many manufacturers where the experience level with that piece of equipment or that technique or that craft goes up and up and up the longer you’re in that role, then you want people who are not just there for the summer jobs, who are not just there for the quick paycheck, you want people who will grow with the organization as they help the organization grow in return.
Yeah, and I could even, you know, where I’m at right now, it’s a very seasonal area. And I would think that the culture for summer workers would be massive as well. Because you’re going to be able to recruit people and there are so many places around here. You go in and they don’t have staff and 50 % of their tables are empty, but there’s a 45-minute line waiting. It’s like, what is going on here? But you can take a short boat ride somewhere or go to the next restaurant and they’re banging. I mean, they have all the staff. They’re pumping tables out and everyone’s happy and you’ve got to think, well, this place they have to have something going on. It’s not because the place is beautiful. You know, the clientele is the same clientele as this place versus that place, but there’s something going on with their culture. Now that we’re talking about that, I would think would hold true where there’s something in that nucleus that is not allowing them to recruit the summer help that they need.
Yeah.
So there, to the bottom line, that means that they’re struggling as a company because they can’t figure the culture out.
Anytime we don’t have the employees that we need to fulfill the capacity that is asked of us, it’s limiting what that company can put out. And it’s exactly the same if you’re in a restaurant and you don’t have enough service staff as it would be in a manufacturer.
Certainly.
If you don’t have enough people to help you manufacture the things that you’re doing.
Yeah.
If one of our other clients, I’m sorry. Go ahead.
No, I was just going to say if you can’t get the widgets out, I don’t care what you’re making. You’re going to lose that customer.
Absolutely. And you’ll hesitate to take the next great contract for the same reason.
Yep.
One of the clients we’re working with right now has been an advisory client of ours for a little over a year who works in panel manufacturing.
Okay.
They work in automation, highly complex systems. They custom-make panels, the panels go in, and they run this automation to make lots of different systems safer, faster and more effective.
Okay.
And they were capped at the number of projects they could take in and successfully fulfill because they didn’t have enough people to help them. So, the first thing we had to do was help them make sure that they had a good recruitment plan in place. Then once the recruitment plan was successful and that worked pretty quickly, they needed a good solid onboarding plan. So, these in some cases career entry-level folks could be successful as quickly as possible. While they had experienced people in the company, those experienced people had a hard time translating their years of experience to a new person and helping that new person be successful as quickly as possible. So, the second thing, if you’re not thinking about it already, behind a great recruitment plan is a great onboarding plan. What’s the first 90 days of somebody’s journey with this company going to be like?
And don’t just say, well, we take the first day, we do safety orientation, and then the second day is, you know, here’s the break room and like, okay, that’s table stakes.
Right. Yeah, absolutely.
How are you going to help me get up to speed? What’s the plan? How will I have a progressive learning path towards mastering this portion of my job? Because that’s what I want as a new employee. I want to be successful. I don’t want to struggle.
Yeah. And I think that it’s important for the employees to ask that question or, on the flip side. If you’re going after a new business, I think it’s important to even talk about it in your presentation to your customer. If you’re going to take on a significant amount of new business and they’re asking, well, do you have enough employees currently to handle that? No, we don’t because it’s a big chunk of business and we’re going to have to recruit. But this is how we’re going to recruit, and this is what we offer, and this is how we get people. This is why we don’t have trouble getting people and this is why we can keep them.
Right.
Yeah, that’s an interesting thought just on capturing new business that really exceeds your capacity.
You have to be able to fulfill it because if you are just phoning in on the work that you do, your clients are going to be happy. You’re not going to come back to you that negative word of mouth is going to spread and that is a death toll. And it may not be fast, but it will happen.
Yeah.
You can’t sustain a business that way.
We’ve talked about so many great things that companies should be doing. What are probably your top five of things that companies absolutely should not be doing that get overlooked that they still do?
With regard to employees?
Yeah, in recruiting or just retention.
Well, we talked about a couple already, so don’t lead with what the salary or bonus requirements are because you’re kind of missing the point.
Right. Yep.
Don’t let the new individual flounder for the first 90 days without a really solid onboarding plan. The onboarding plan should be progressive, and it should be attainable, and it should be something that there are on-the-floor mentors to help this individual succeed. A lot of manufacturers like a lot of businesses retail, I’ve seen this a lot into they do at-the-elbow training, which is totally fine. Sure, it’s the right elbow. Make sure it’s the right training, you have some thoughts on that.
Yeah.
And then and this is where the cliff often happens. Once they finish that first 90 days, make sure they know about the next 90 days, and the 90 days after that, and the 90 days after that. Dustin, if you look at the statistics for this industry for the manufacturing industry you will see a huge drop-off in employee count retention after the first 90 days. I think in part because of some of these 90-day bonuses.
Yeah.
Work to the 90-day bonus. They’ll pay it out and then they’re jumping ship. They’re going for the next bonus. And then you’ll see another cliff after the first year and another cliff after 18 months to two years. It gets a little soft. The data gets a little soft in there. So, if you can keep them past the first 90 days and you want to keep them longer than that, what you need to do then is give them a vision, a continued vision for where they can continue to grow in their mastery of their craft. I was working with a beautiful, delightful young woman in a manufacturing facility. Her specialty was the automated arm that came and picked up a case of this, moved it to the shipping area and did it over and over and over.
Okay.
She called it her boyfriend. That robot was her boyfriend.
Yeah.
Because she spent so much time with it because she gave it commands that it followed. I don’t know if every boyfriend does that.
Probably every one of them.
But she was very proud that she could get her boyfriend to dance if that’s what she wanted to do.
Right.
You know, this is a big piece of machinery. It could be very dangerous if she doesn’t feel like she is mastering the controls that she’s in charge of. But she absolutely did. And she just lit up talking about her quote-unquote boyfriend and all the things that she did and how she not only became a master of it herself but was then helping new people work to be automation masters controlling this giant, massive robot arm that was moving things around.
Sure.
And that made her the hero of her own story. She was really excited about that. So, continue to give individuals a vision of where their careers could go. I think a lot of companies will have an apprenticeship program. Maybe they’ve got an arrangement with the local trade school for interns who are coming in from the trade school. Okay, that’s fine. That’s entry-level. What about mid-career? What about advanced careers? If you want to retain these people, you have to give them bigger and bigger ways to challenge themselves and to grow in the mastery of their craft. I keep coming back to that phrase because it’s the one that resonates the most with people.
Yeah. And I think though, when you’re trying to keep folks like this young lady, maybe she’ll be okay working on that machine for the rest of her life. And there are certainly folks that are wired that way. I think that’s less and less people just with our technology and instant gratification and always looking to better themselves certainly, you know, old school 70s, you could have an individual stand on the same machine for 40 years and not ever do another job. I worked alongside a lady. I was there for eight hours. And I’m like, how has this lady been on this machine for 40 years doing the exact same thing like nothing changes? And it just blew my mind. But today, if that young lady is never, she enjoys her job so much, but never is asked, hey, do you want to do something else? What do want to be doing in a year, three years, or five years? If she’s never asked that question, she may fizzle out and then go seek happiness elsewhere.
That’s a great point. I don’t know this individual, well I can tell you that she happened to be an immigrant, so she was okay to be doing what she was doing.
Absolutely.
But I also agree that she probably had aspirations beyond that as well. And it may be that she’ll be in that role and in that line position for a while and then innovate on that or become the trainer of other people who take her position. And then through that, she becomes somebody who’s just really good at training because she understands this stuff and she’s highly attentive to things like the safety details around these massive, automated pieces of equipment.
Yeah. Absolutely.
Having that conversation with them on a regular basis, I agree, Dustin, is part of helping them see the bigger vision and allowing your employees to suggest to you. What is the next innovation? What should we be doing as an organization that we’re not doing that would increase safety? Would increase efficiency, would be innovative, would put distance between us and our competition, and capture an incoming need that we haven’t even recognized yet. Man, when you are having those open conversations, that’s when sparks happen. I just get excited thinking about the possibilities.
Yeah, it was fun. I got a text message today because we had a few folks go actually see Wilson Basketball today. So, Wilson Basketball is made close to where we are at. And they met some executives through Wilson Basketball. And we took I think three people went today and they texted me and they were just so excited because they got to bounce an airless basketball and they got to see their production line and you know how just their culture and they were just so excited about getting to go do that today. But the cool part for me is they bring other ideas back to us and like, hey, they were doing it like this. Maybe we should be doing it like that. We’re not as efficient in this area. Can we implement this? And it’s like, absolutely, whatever. Do it. Why would you ever hold anyone back for one wanting to improve? And I’ve worked at those places where somebody on the floor comes to management with an idea that makes total sense to me. And then I’d have to go get approval and then the president would shoot it down because it costs 1,000 bucks or whatever. You put all the numbers together in a spreadsheet and show how you’d soak up to 1,000 bucks pretty quickly and still get shut down. And people just stop coming up with ideas once their ideas are shut down.
Yeah, that is a great point too. It is one thing to listen, it’s another thing to create an atmosphere where you can responsibly test and learn.
Yeah.
What would it look like if I could get a crew for a pilot project? Test it and learn from it. Another phrase I found surprisingly effective in conversations like this if you’re the one trying to sell something upstream is to say well could we audition it and just find out?
Yeah.
I don’t know what it is about the word audition that might be different than test maybe audition feels more creative.
Yeah.
Feels more analytical.
Yeah.
Try it on and let me know if you have similar results. But somehow it changes a little brain chemistry, and I could go well, I could maybe audition it.
Yeah, there’s a guy, and again, close to where we’re at. And I don’t know how he might be in his 70s or 75 years old. We were actually renting a space from the family. Because we needed the capacity two years ago. And I saw this guy driving around the parking lot and had an old pickup truck and a dump bed. He had furniture in it. And I just walked up. I had no idea who the guy was. And I’m like, hey, sir, can I help you? And he’s like, well, I was going to throw some stuff in our dumpster or whatever, but it’s full. And I’m like, okay. So, I introduced myself and I’m like, wow. This is the guy who started a hundred-million-dollar company that we’re renting the building from him. And he’s in ripped and tattered clothes and he talked to me for like an hour. He talked about his son’s wanting to do things differently than he wanted to do them. And he goes, my response every time was yes, let’s give it a go. But if my way ends up being better, we’re going to go back and do it my way. If your way ends up being better, then we’ll continue doing it your way. And I’m like, that’s pretty cool that he just gave the reins to his kids. And he’s like, it didn’t always work out the way that they thought. So, we would end up having to go back and do it the original way that we were doing it. He’s like more times than not, they we’re able to improve but that’s what engaged my boys into running the company.
Definitely. And I think that would be true if they were related or not.
Yeah, absolutely. Yep.
What would it be? Talk it through?
Yeah.
We have a process we use with our clients over and over throughout various stages of work. And it’s just three steps. Assess the needs, design what the outcome could look like and how you’re going to get there, and then go ahead and install it. Once you’ve installed it, that’s what you go back to. Assess it. Design, install, assess, design, install. And design could be an MVP. It could be rapid prototyping on paper. It could be that audition period.
Sure.
Let me just try it for four days for a week for four weeks and we’ll compare the results against the way that we’ve traditionally been doing it. It’s sometimes remarkable what you’ll learn and innovate in the process of doing that. Again, as long as you do it safely and responsibly, put some boundaries on it that make sense. But if it’s not going to burn the place down, what does it hurt to try it sometimes?
Yeah, I can’t agree more. And I just think in our own process, there are so many different things that people have figured out that have made the process better or even doable. We’ve had a couple of those situations where we’ve taken something on and we’re like, we shouldn’t have done this. And then two days later, somebody figures it out and we’re beating the rate than what we thought we should have been. But for me, I just get out of their way. I do feel like in my situation, if I’m on the line and I’m helping, everyone’s looking at me for the answer. And I’m like, no, no, no, I, don’t have the answers. That’s why you’re here because you have the answers. I don’t have the answers. I’m just like the guy here helping. So, sometimes I have to remove myself because they will feel like all the answers have to come from me. Even if I say they don’t, they’re constantly looking for instant affirmation. It’s like, no, try it. If it doesn’t work, then we’ll stop doing that and we’ll try this or we’ll try something else. But it’s really fun to see that as well.
That’s a great culture that you’re nurturing there. That you’re demonstrating for them to like I’m just a human.
Yeah.
I’m the same as you are put my pants on one leg at a time. I might have more experience in this you might have more experience in that. Let’s work on it together. And that is such a generous posture to have good for you.
Yeah, well, and I certainly can’t take credit for everything. Ashley is our ops manager. She’s the go-to culture and wants to build people and she’s in the military. Just a phenomenal person. She brings ideas all the time. She did. I’m probably going to screw this up and she’ll tell me. I think she called it to pay it forward. Or maybe there’s another term for that. But we just want her like she and her team went around in the community and just passed out cookies. And like I feel like a lot of manufacturing companies would be like you’re doing what? Not passing out cookies in the community. And I’m like, yeah, whatever you want to do. She’s like, are you serious? I’m like, yeah, you think it’s a good idea and we’re not missing any deliveries. Then yeah, let’s do it. And we had so many people just really bragging about it and things like that. I thought it was a really cool thing. And we’re in such a small little town that everyone knows who she is.
I think that’s fantastic. Other than community engagement. And I’m going to guess that for the employees and the team members who went with her to do cookie delivery, that it was Invigorating for them.
Yeah. Got them out of the office or off the floor and they were able to get out and it was fun for them. So that’s what matters.
We forget sometimes we’re heads down in our work. We’re inside the four walls of our building and we forget there’s a whole community out there that is in some way touched. Particularly in a small town the way that you described it, touched by what happens in this building, the commerce that comes out of the building, the ideas that come out of this building, the finances that flow in and out of this building really reverberates through the community. Hey, let’s go be visible in the community every now and then. That’s a fantastic habit.
Yep, absolutely. So, we’ve got all the way into this. We’ve had quite a few challenges. I feel like we fixed them finally. I introduced you and didn’t really tell people about your company or how to get ahold of you or anything like that. And we will put everything in the description. We also do a blog and all that fun stuff. But if you will tell folks what your company is, what your focus is, and how to get ahold of you.
Sure. The company’s name is Provoke Better. We don’t go for perfect. We go for better. That’s how you make it. Progress through incremental differences.
Incremental differences.
That’s right. Nothing crazy and dramatic. This is not like an HTTP reveal. It’s Provoked Better. But that still has meaning, of course. We love to work with manufacturers, tech, and science-related companies because they often have these really complex ideas and processes and concepts that they need to distill into de-jargoned messages and uncomplicated processes.
I like it.
And that’s what we love to do using that three-step process I described a moment ago where we assess, design, and then help you install. And so, we’re generally working arm in arm with that company, kind of embedded with them for a period of time. It could be six months, could be two years until they get that next stage of their growth secured and feel like they’ve got good momentum to continue on without us.
What’s the perfect fit for the company size that you like to work with?
Great question. We love to work with companies that are typically through $3 million and up. They wouldn’t consider themselves in the growth stage, the way that traditional growth like massive growth is, but rather that steady growth where they’re looking for incremental changes to become more resilient, to improve their company culture, for example, their recruitment campaign, their marketing campaign, some of the operational processes. One of the companies, as an example that we worked with starting last year, went from three to $4 million last year. They’re on track right now. We’re recording this in August and they’re on track this year to hit about 5.2 at the end of this year.
Okay. Yeah.
So good growth. Not massive, tripled the growth, but good, steady, sustainable growth. And that’s a beautiful place for us to work with. And often we’re working with founder operators as well. And that’s significant I think Dustin because the founder of the organization, that individual can sometimes have ideas that unintentionally kind of lock the company in a certain thing because they think that unlike you, all good ideas need to come from them. Sounds like you’ve already kind of special.
I know I’m not that smart. So that’s easy for me. I learned that at an early age.
So, the founder operator who is still working there, that engineer or that tech developer, sometimes they can unintentionally have to grow to their own organization because they just don’t know that there’s a different way to do it.
Yep.
And so, we come in and we make them uncomfortable in the best possible way and help them get to where they need to go. So, the company doesn’t have to depend on them quite so much as an individual.
Is there a founder-owner that is more difficult to make realize that like an engineer or a doctor or somebody with a PhD and whatever their profession is? Or even just the guy that invented something that maybe, does a master’s or even undergrad or even somebody that doesn’t have an education at all. They are just really good at their craft and now that they own it. Have you found that one personality type struggles with that more than the other?
The high-data people are perhaps the most difficult until you show them the data about having more options. If you’re somebody who loves to be in the lab, for example, but you also need to hire, fire, figure out if the marketing is okay, make sure that the recruitment campaign went out, talk to some new clients, et cetera, you know, you’re fractionalized. And if you really love being in the lab, we, Provoke Better, are going to work with you and your company to make sure that you’ve got stunt doubles as much as possible in the areas that you don’t love to do so you can get back to the lab. It’s really about having choices. We’re not forcing anybody out of a position just because that’s like an invented goal. The goal is to have options. You want to be able to have a business that you can grow while you outgrow your busyness.
Yeah. Well, and that’s one thing that I read in your bio that really made sense to me is, by doing less, sometimes you end up doing more. And I do think that we talk about that all the time in Vistage where sometimes we’re our own worst enemy because we get into the middle of everything and then that ends up being a bottleneck because you’re trying to do too many things and you can’t be great at sales, great at accounting, great at whatever else production being in the lab. You can’t give a hundred percent to all of those things.
Yeah.
And then once you’re able to get out of your own way, you can start doing other things in your life and not work 80 or 90 hours. And I think that so many, especially owner-founders get into that where like, I haven’t been on vacation in 10 years. Like why? Well, because I’m too busy. The place will fall apart if I’m not there. My dad, my grandma, and my grandpa owned a Dairy Queen, and they literally thought that people had stopped buying cheeseburgers or if they were not in there. And it’s like, I just saw it growing up. I mean, they worked every day seven days a week, like 15-hour days. And there are so many people who do that to their own companies.
I appreciate a great work ethic as much as the next person. At the same time, it is not sustainable. Furthermore, Dustin, I would say to you, it’s not responsible. In the previous company that I owned, I had a very small team. Ran a video marketing company. We had eight people at our highest. But even then, I realized that if I was out of work. If I was not able to come to work, I had a medical incident, I was in an accident and I couldn’t come into the office for as little as eight weeks. If that were to happen, my entire company and the lives of the people who chose to work there would be jeopardized. It would be in danger, and I thought, this is not responsible Whitney. These people have put their trust in you as a leader. The clients have put their trust in you, why are you making yourself a single point of failure for so many of these parts of the business?
That’s a very good point.
And then I realized I was doing it.
Yeah.
And what drew my attention to it was because that exact scenario happened to my parents. I mentioned they own their own company as well. They run a zoo, and it’s got 75 acres, over a thousand animals and 45 employees. Then they were in a serious car accident several years ago. And my dad was in shock trauma. He was in the hospital and then he was in rehabilitation for months. My mom also went to the hospital. She got out sooner and her medical health journey was a few weeks instead of several months. But the operations at the park were wobbly while they were gone. I needed to step in. My brother needed to step in. Had a lot of things that were not. We got through because the mission alignment was strong, but it was rougher than it needed to be because too many of the responsibilities, the authorities, and the knowledge were locked up in their heads instead of dispersed throughout the team. It wasn’t something they did intentionally, but if you don’t intentionally disperse it, you are creating a risky situation for your organization.
Yeah, hire yourself out of a job. You got to get away from it sometime.
It’s a much shorter way to put that, I should know.
But yours is way more elegant eloquence in mind. So, we’ll take yours. I’m a pretty simple neanderthal sometimes. Well, I’ve had a ton of fun. I cannot appreciate your patience anymore. I’ve never had that many challenges before. So yes, Luke, you do have work to do. But I’m sure it’ll sound wonderful when we’re done. We’ve talked about some incredible things. I would even invite you back to talk about some other subject because I think it’s fun. We talked about that in the beginning so we can tackle something else. If somebody is listening and wants us to discuss some topic that we did, or dive a little deeper, then that’d be great as well. Just reach out to us and let us know. Cool.
Bring it. I love a good challenge. I’ll also put some resources on my website for the listeners of your show Dustin. So, if you go to provokebetter.com/mfgmonkey and even your podcast. I’ll put three resources on there, related to our conversation today. One will be a webinar replay of a recruit like a marketer. So, you get tips and more examples about how to take your current recruitment ads that may not be working for you and turn them into something that puts right-sit candidates at the center of their own adventure. I’ve also got an AI tool that I’ve custom crafted that helps you write better job descriptions, onboarding, and SOPs, so if you want a really quick head start, I’ve got a custom chat TBT ready for you. Those are free resources. And then finally, if anybody would like to schedule an assessment to find what their high-value opportunity could be for their manufacturing company, there’ll be a link to schedule a call with me to do that.
Perfect.
No charge, no obligation, no heavy.
Yeah, and we’ll put all the same links in the description. So, if you’re listening to it rolling down the road, you can go and find a description and we’ll have it on our website as well.
Fantastic.
Fantastic. Thank you so much. Great to meet you.
You too Dustin. Talk again soon.
All right. Bye-bye.
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