In this enlightening episode of the MFGMonkey Podcast, we delve into the pivotal role of leadership in shaping and nurturing company culture with esteemed expert Jason Anthoine. As organizations strive to create environments that foster engagement and innovation, understanding the influence of leadership on culture becomes essential. Jason shares his insights and experiences, offering practical strategies for leaders to cultivate a positive and productive workplace culture. Whether you’re a business leader or an aspiring manager, this conversation provides valuable perspectives on the transformative power of effective leadership.
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- https://www.linkedin.com/in/jasonanthoine/
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The Critical Role of Leadership in Shaping Company Culture with Jason Anthoine
In this conversation, Dustin McMillan and Jason Anthoine discuss the importance of employee experience and culture in organizations. They highlight the impact of culture on employee satisfaction and company success. They also emphasize the need for leaders to engage with employees on a personal level and create a positive work environment. The conversation touches on topics such as the role of technology in employee communication, the significance of the break room, and the challenges of culture change in large organizations. In this conversation, Jason Anthoine discusses the importance of caring and trust in organizations and the impact it has on employee engagement. He challenges the concept of employee engagement surveys and emphasizes the need for a common definition and measurement. Jason also highlights the significance of exit interviews and the importance of addressing the issues raised by departing employees. He emphasizes the role of leaders in creating a positive culture and the need for genuine communication and empathy. Overall, the key theme is the importance of genuine care and leadership in creating a positive work environment.
Jason Anthoine welcome buddy. How are you?
I’m great. Thanks, Dustin. I’m so glad to be here.
Yeah, I’m glad to have you. We chatted a couple of weeks ago and kind of talked about what we’re going to talk about and we’ll see if we can add some value today to folks.
That’d be great. I’m looking forward to it. I really appreciate you having me on.
Yeah, the thing that you do is very near and dear to my heart with employee experience and culture and all those things we’ve done probably quite a few podcasts that turn into, you know, a culture talk or employee experience talk. And it’s really cool that’s what your company focuses on. Tell us a little bit about your company. I get tongue-tied there a little bit.
Yeah. Well, you know, I’ve been doing employee experience and culture change and internal communications now for about 35 years, which means I’m 36 years old, I think.
Ha ha ha. Perfect.
Right, exactly. And I focus on that because I love it. I have done external communications and PR and media relations and all those kinds of things. But that stuff, for other jobs that I had to do. This is what I love to do. And I love it because, I mean, think about you, me, anybody listening, we spend 10, 12, 14 hours a day sometimes at work.
Mm-hmm.
And it ought to make a difference. It ought to feel right, both to you and the company. So, I just really enjoy figuring out ways to have work matter more for you know, both employees and the companies and it’s just who I am and how I was brought up. And so, if that makes a difference for just one employee somewhere in one company, that’s great. That’s good enough for me. Hopefully, it makes a bigger difference than that, but really all I want to do is just make things better. That’s one person at a time, I’m fine with that.
Yeah, and it is. I believe culture is probably the most important thing within your company. You can have a great product and poor culture and it’s not going to be fun for anyone. And you can have a great culture and a poor product and you’re probably still going to do all right.
Yeah, that’s a good way to put it, you know? Because if you think about, you know, sales and marketing and all the stuff that goes on externally, everybody’s making promises in the marketplace about this product or about this service and what customers can expect. But none of that is going to happen until you turn that focus inwards in the workplace and figure out, you know, how all these people behind that logo are going to keep all of these promises that are being made primarily on their behalf.
Yeah.
And so to your point, if you don’t have that right, then you don’t really have a prayer. If it’s the other way around, you do have a prayer, because then you will figure out how to deliver something great to whatever your market is. But if you can’t do that at all, it doesn’t matter if it’s great or not.
Yeah, one, it seems like culture has been ingrained in your mind from a young age on your website, you tell a story about your dad working as a production foreman on the assembly line of making school buses. And, you know, obviously, that really impacted you at a young age.
It really did. And, you know, for those of you who’ve ridden school buses or your kids do, it’s Bluebird and the world headquarters are in Fort Valley, Georgia, which is where I grew up. And my dad worked there even before he was out of high school. He would come in after school and report directly to the president’s office who told him, I’m not giving you a job here until you come in and finish your homework first.
Wow.
And so, he have to sit in the president’s office and finish his homework, and then he can go out on the line and do whatever he was doing for them. And he stayed there for 37 years.
Wow, that’s cool. How old was he when he started there?
17,16, just before he graduated high school.
That’s pretty cool.
And stayed there his whole career. And so, when I came along, I got to hear stories about, what goes on at work and what matters and who’s great to work with and why and who’s terrible to work with and why.
Ha ha ha.
And then I also got a similar dose from my mother who was a secretary at the bank for most of my childhood. Same kind of thing, you know, come home and we’d be having dinner and they’d be talking about all that stuff. And you know how it is if you have kids, you’re just talking about all this stuff and you don’t think they’re listening or that any of it matters. And apparently, I was because it all just kind of stuck in there and ended up being exactly what I ended up doing myself as a career, which was translating all of that into something that matters to people who can do something about it.
Yeah. That’s really cool. So, how big I mean, this Bluebird thing is cool because Bluebird, even when your father was 17, had to be a fairly big company, I would think.
Absolutely. For a very long time, they were the largest school bus manufacturer on the planet. They had six or seven plants. Some were actual manufacturing plants, and others were more assembly plants. They didn’t have anything globally really, they had something in Central America and then they had one facility in Canada, but they didn’t have anything globally. So, if they would sell something overseas, then they would literally take all the components of a bus and put it in a giant crate. Engine, transmission, I mean, everything that it takes to build a bus, put it in a giant crate and ship it over to, you know, wherever the country is on the other side of the world. And if you bought 20 of those, then there are 20 giant crates being shipped over there.
Sure.
And so in Fort Valley, the headquarters, I believe at the time there were probably 2,500 or so employees cranking out school buses, you know, down the assembly line, one, I think every 12 minutes or so, give or take, depending on demand and what’s going on.
Wow.
And most of the time, you know, once I got older to really understand what he was doing, his responsibility was sort of two parts. So, the body of the bus came along and his first team was to do all the upholstery. Upholster the seats, put them together and then install them on the body.
And then the next phase, which he was also responsible for, was marrying the body to the chassis. So, there’s a tie-down pit where people work underneath the assembly line and overhead. They’re literally tying the body down to the chassis. So, he was responsible for those two areas. And it was just absolutely fascinating to me to hear about all of that stuff.
Sure. What was the most significant thing you feel you learned as a kid hearing your parents’ stories?
Well, two really significant things that stand out, and it feels like we’ve gotten away from this a little bit, but it was okay for me to go where they worked. Like call and say, hey, I need to see my dad, or I need to see my mom, give them a heads up, and then they would meet me in the lobby or whatever.
Mm-hmm.
I don’t have enough money for whatever I need after school or things like that.
Sure.
So, it just felt like there was access to them whenever I needed it, but not for frivolous stuff, because you’d get in trouble for that. And mostly when I went to see my dad, he’s like, well, come on out, let’s see what’s going on down the assembly line. So, 11, 12 years old, I’m walking out there just seeing what’s going on and understanding how all these buses get made and interactions between his team and other teams doing other things.
Mm-hmm.
So, it felt like the context around all of that was just how people are working together to accomplish the same thing, both for their own personal and professional benefit, as well as the companies and certainly the customers on the other end. And all of that to me was just tied together with culture and communications and relationship building. And I think those are probably the main things that still stick out and are still important, probably even more so.
So do you feel that our manufacturing companies today have lost a little bit of that and that’s why it’s harder to reach the frontline folks.
Definitely, not only do I feel that way, I think the people who are in those manufacturing environments feel that way. That’s certainly what they tell us in all kinds of surveys and things that we do.
Sure.
There are a thousand factors why that might be, globalization, technology, pace, and all kinds of things. But all that to me is just window dressing around sort of what the key issues are, which are what they were then, which is, there’s a team of people here who are really proud of what they do and are really good at doing it. And the more we can appreciate and recognize and further that growth, the better off everybody’s going to be, especially them, but certainly, you know, the company and the customers as well. And it just feels like we’ve gotten away from some of that, particularly when it comes to communications. Like I’ve worked at larger organizations like GE, Siemens, and Newell Brands, and being the head of communications, I can tell you, that it is really hard to reach frontline employees who are in a manufacturing plant or a retail environment or they’re salespeople who are on the road. All those people are kind of frontline and they’re hard to reach. And usually, companies go, they’re hard to reach. They’ll just hear it from their manager and just kind of give up. And just because it’s hard to do it doesn’t mean you should. You have just as much responsibility.
They don’t try as hard, I don’t think, because it is difficult to do it, and that, I think, contributes to this growing distance between how the employees feel about their connection with the organization and whether anybody cares enough to try harder.
What can companies do to reach their frontline more easily and more effectively?
Yeah, well, first of all, they should certainly acknowledge that they should. Secondly, typically what communications people and HR people and some others will always sort of turn to first is some sort of technology or digital platform that can be as simple as access to email or access to the internet, or it could be a little bit more upscale than that around mobile apps and digital signage. So, there’s a lot of different things that you can put in those types of environments and off shift when they’re not in the facility so that you can both push things to them and they can pull things themselves when they have the time to do that.
Mm-hmm.
By the way, break is not the time for that because it’s a break. They’ve earned it, they’re tired, they don’t want to fool around with your propaganda. Leave me alone and I’ll find some other time to pull it when I’m ready to pull it. But I think, you know, there’s a lot of reliance on digital tools for a lot of reasons, but that high-tech stuff is great, but it tends to overlook the high-touch feeling that most employees want to get from those types of interactions. So just because you’re connecting to them doesn’t mean you’re connecting with them, you know? And so, despite all these digital channels, I think there’s still a lot of room for face-to-face and shift change huddles and management by walking around and all the things that truly matter to employees that aren’t necessarily digital and they feel more high touch and they, by themselves, just by definition, prove that you care a little bit more.
Yeah, two things. Well, really three things come to mind. One, how important do you think internal signage that you bring up in a facility is just positive affirmations throughout the building or statements or just random things throughout the building?
Sure.
How important do you think those things are? And then secondly, just because I don’t want to forget how important do you think the break room is?
Right. So, for the signage piece, I think that’s very important. I mean, think about your own behavior when you’re driving down the road, you look at billboards, right?
Yeah.
It’s the same kind of concept. The problem usually is that the more you are driving, the less likely you are to look because it’s another one, it’s another one, it’s another one.
Mm-hmm.
And after a while, you don’t even see them anymore. And so, a lot of companies put signage out there, which is great. But they don’t rotate it often enough. So, it’s out there and then people are used to seeing it and then they’ve seen it enough and then they forget it’s even there because it’s been the same thing for three years now.
That makes sense.
So, rotate it out because people want to see new and different and fresh content for sure. An even better way is to pair not only those messages but to pair them with big giant photos of employees so that I know him or her, and maybe one day that will also be me on that thing. It just makes it feel more personal and it’s somebody you know and if you change them out often enough then people start to look forward to all right, who’s going to be up there next?
Yeah. That’s a great idea.
Yeah, and that is also true of the break room. So, I usually recommend a light touch in the break room because people are in there and they’re trying to eat, they’re trying to rest, they’re maybe on their phones and doing some other things.It’s their personal time. And I don’t think it’s appropriate to try and take over that space and just have a bunch of messages just yelling at people all the time. There might be some table tents, cardboard table tents like you’d have at McDonald’s, or something with just some subtle things with a QR code on it that people can go and do if they want to. But I don’t like to rely on a break room as a main channel for communications because when people are in there, they don’t want to be bothered. I wouldn’t want to be bothered either.
What about the condition of the break room? And I’ve been in a lot of facilities over the years. And I’ve been in break rooms that are, you know, you don’t even want to eat in there. And the culture of the company and the leadership is like, hey, it’s a waste of money. People are in there for 30 minutes and then they’re out. And, you know, I’ve been into some facilities, a couple in my Vistage Group where the break rooms are awesome. I mean, you want to stay in there and there’s, you know, all the microwaves are clean. The refrigerators are clean. They’re new. There are TVs in there. There are ping pong tables. There are things for people really, you know, during that 30 minutes or hour that they get, they can really relax. There are couches in there, you know, so there’s really two mindsets on opposite ends of the spectrum. I think you know which one I enjoy.
Yeah, me too probably.
Yeah. So, it’s always been interesting to me, the companies that don’t invest in the break room, because they think it’s a waste of money.
Yeah, and I think more than that, what it does is signal to the employees that you’re not worth it. Like they know that it’s not being done because it is expensive, and then they do the math in their head and say, it’s because we’re not worth it.
Yeah.
And that’s the message you’re sending.
Yeah.
Whether you mean to send that message or not, that is the message that you’re sending versus the opposite end of that spectrum that you just described, which is, that this may be an awful job and the worst place in the world to work, but they really care about us because look at what they’re doing to help make things better around it.
Yeah.
Just the emotional impact of the difference between those two is sending a message whether you intend to or not.
Funny story. I worked at a company. It’s been 10-plus years ago and they asked me to help change the culture. When I interviewed, they asked me to help change the culture. And we touched on this a little bit when we chatted before. And so, one of the things I did was I met with literally every person on the floor. And I’m like, what are the top five things that are important to you? When you’re here, what are the top five, and consistently our break room always came up and it was because it was old and outdated and everything was dirty and the tables were broken and the chairs were, you know, you had to watch what chair you sat on and things like that. And so, I took that information back to the board and the president. And I’m like, hey, we need to do something with our break room. You know, this is important to everyone. And I put together a budget and we’re a very conservative company, so it was conservative, but it would have meant a lot to everyone.
Yeah.
It wasn’t even a five-minute conversation and it got shot down.
Yeah, that’s terrible.
And then two weeks later, the president remodeled his office.
Delightful.
And you can imagine the grumbling, you know, throughout the entire facility. It did the exact opposite of what I was trying to accomplish.
Yeah. That’s very familiar. You know, sadly, it’s very familiar. It’s seems like a simple, easy thing to do that regardless of what the cost is, the return on investment is 10 times that of how people feel about how you feel about them. And so, companies talk a lot about engagement and culture and things like that. And you know, if you do an annual engagement survey and you don’t have a specific question on there about what do you feel about the break room?
Mm-hmm.
How they feel about what they think you feel about them because of the break room is going to show up in every other answer that they give.
Yep.
And so, you know, if it’s easy enough to do, then why not do it?
Sure.
If you want to have a better culture, start with the things that are low-hanging fruit that really will make a big difference but aren’t in the scheme of things, a significant investment.
So, when you’ve been brought into a company to help and maybe you’re brought in by I don’t even know who would bring in HR maybe.
Well, sometimes HR, sometimes operations, sometimes C-suite, I guess. But mostly it’s HR and maybe communications people.
Okay. Have you ever been in a situation where you get in and you’re hired to help change the culture and you get massive pushback from upper management, the President, or the CEO?
I would say unless the president or CEO has brought me in, there’s always some degree of pushback on that.
Okay.
And it usually goes something like this, and I’m sure you’ve heard it too. Well, I don’t know why we need to focus on that. We’ve been around for like 25 years and we’re a $3 billion company. Obviously, we know what we’re doing.
Wow.
Usually, my response is, do you think it’s possible you could be a $7 billion company if you really kind of focused on this?
Sure.
Or is three billion okay enough with you? I turn on this light in my office every morning and as a result, I’ve never been attacked by an elephant. Those two have nothing to do with each other.
Right.
Just because you are successful doesn’t mean, it might be despite your best efforts, but there’s always that sort of pushback, whether it’s from more senior leaders or from people who are well-entrenched throughout the operations who, for whatever reason don’t like change, don’t want change. Maybe they screamed about it for years, but nobody ever listened, and now they’re mad that somebody is.
Mm-hmm.
I don’t know, but humans being humans, nobody really likes changes. They want everyone else to change, but they don’t want to change, which is part of what happens.
Yeah.
But it is always an uphill climb, even for the simplest of things like updating the break room, or why don’t we give employees access to the internet from home? What? Why would they ever need to do that? Well, A, they’re not sitting in front of a computer all day, they’re out there on the assembly line.
Right.
And B, it’s probably their spouse who’s going to be doing all their benefits stuff, so they need to have access to that.
Sure.
It’s just crazy, you know? How do you not think about employees and their lives?
Yeah.
When it comes to a CEO or President engaging with employees on the floor, what impact do you feel it has when that person knows everyone’s name and can hold a meaningful conversation, even if it’s a 30-second conversation as they walk the floor?
Yeah. I mean, you’ve experienced that, I’ve experienced that. I think it’s incredibly powerful. And it’s even more powerful when that leader wants to do that.
Mm-hmm.
Understands the value of doing that, the value is not just for him or her, but for the employees. And it’s not something that HR or CorpCom said, you know what we need to do? We need to get the leaders out here. And that’s what it feels like happened, you know? So, the more natural and normal and regular it is, the easier for it to feel for the leaders who are doing it and the easier it feels, you know, for the employees who are experiencing that. And a lot of people say, I’m just one leader and there’s 750 people in this plant. I can’t know everybody’s name. Everybody will know mine because they just have to remember one. I got to remember 700. Nobody cares.
Right.
What they care about is that you’re trying, that you’re making an effort. And you know, they don’t expect you to remember 750 names either. But what they do like is that you’re just trying.
Yeah.
And sometimes that’s all you have to do is just try.
And I bring that up because there’s been two, really three experiences in my life, well four that I know of. And it really blew me away while walking on the floor. One is a buddy of mine, Mike Davis, who owns an extrusion company in Columbus, Ohio. And just to see people’s faces light up when Mike would walk by and just tap him on the back or shake their hand or, you know, it was noisy and just make eye contact with him. It was pretty cool to see. And Jamie McGregor with McGregor medals and Springfield, Ohio, that guy knows everyone’s first and last name as he walks through.
That’s incredible.
It is. He brags about a big Japanese company down the street. And he’s like, guys, you’re going to see me at Kroger shopping, and I want you to come up to me and talk to me. He goes, you’re not going to see the CEO of that Japanese company shopping at Kroger. They don’t even know your name. They don’t even know what number you are at their company. And he does such a good job just talking about that.
Yeah.
And it’s it just always sunk in with me. You know, as a kid, I started working at a papermaker felt company and the CEO did the same thing.
Yeah.
And people just lit up when he walked by and it just left a huge impact on me.
It really is, and I think a lot of leaders, for whatever reason, once they get past a certain point, they kind of have career amnesia.
Yeah.
They’ve forgotten how it was when they were first starting out and what meant something to them.
Yeah.
And so, the good ones haven’t, and they’ve retained that because they know how special it was and they know how powerful it can be. And they’re really natural at it and good at it. A lot of the pushback that I get is, I don’t want you to turn me into a rockstar CEO. Nobody wants a rockstar CEO. People just want a normal, regular human who understands what’s going on outside of the paneled walls you spend your whole day in, and the best way to demonstrate that is to go outside of them.
Yeah.
You would spend a ton of time face-to-face with your customers, right? Why wouldn’t you spend even a fraction of that with your employees?
And it’s probably the most important job I would think a CEO has, is the employee portion of his job. Like I have a buddy that owns a tubing mill, and when he walks through the floor and there’s 500 employees or whatever and he’s belly laughing with people.
Yeah.
Those folks have been there for 35 years, and they feel like their friends and don’t feel like they are employees.
That’s right. Yeah. It has a special power to it. And to your point, I counsel to lean way heavier into doing that stuff with employees than even with your own customers.
Yeah.
Just because to me, it gives you a bigger and better return. And it helps people to humanize not just that particular leader, but leaders in general that, all right, there are folks up front, they’re doing things that are different from us, they know what we’re doing, we kind of know what they’re doing, but that’s not really important.
Right.
As long as they know what we’re doing, then we feel like we can trust them to do the right things. And that’s what this whole conversation today and any other conversation I have is ultimately all you’re trying to do is build trust in everything you do is a deposit in that little trust bank. And you want to keep putting as many of those as you can because your fault or not, there’s going to be a lot of withdrawals. That’s just how that type of situation works. And so, the more you put in there, the less likely you are to get overdrawn.
Yeah, and I think that is the advantage of a small manufacturer versus a large manufacturer.
Yeah.
But if the large manufacturer and talking about the large manufacturer, you know, 500 employees,
Sure.
which could be one facility in one town or it could be multiple facilities. But if that CEO or President gets it, it’s huge. But I think it is easier for a small company because you may have 10 names remember and they do become friends with you, which can create a whole another bag of problems.
Yeah, sometimes. Yeah, well that’s a great point. I think the smaller ones do have an advantage when it comes to that, but I think the larger ones could learn from that.
Sure.
It may be a big facility, 500 people, 1,000 people, or whatever, but just like any other organization that has a culture, there are subcultures within each organization. And so, in a very large manufacturing facility, people are in teams. I don’t need to know a thousand people all at once. I just need to know people by teams and roles and whatever phase we are in on the assembly line there so that I can begin to think and act like it’s a smaller company because I can divide things up into these smaller groups like that, even though there might be a thousand people there.
Yeah. And it is interesting when you talk about culture, you want to be small, and you act smaller in the process. You want to act as if you’re bigger.
Yeah.
So, you have better processes. And it’s interesting how that works because the small companies can struggle to have the processes because of budget and, manpower and things like that.
Sure.
And larger companies struggle with the opposite.
Exactly. And it’s funny to me that they struggle with the opposite because that personal touch for the most part is free.
Yeah.
We don’t have to invest in all kinds of training and get some translators.
Yeah.
It doesn’t have to be complicated like some of the processes are and should be. It’s free. And it makes a big impact. So free and big impact. Who’s going to ROI on that? It’s like a million.
Yeah. You bring a customer through, and your customer pulls Susie to the side, and like, hey, Susie, what do you think about working here? And she brags about the place.
Yeah.
I mean, that’s done.
That’s right.
Or she goes, this place is miserable. I don’t even want to be here today. I don’t want to talk to you. And then the customer leaves and they’re like, do we really want to do business with these guys?
Yeah, that’s so funny. There’s a consultant in my space, you know, kind of the communications and consulting space. So, he’s a consultant for consultants. And one of the things he says is that people buy two things, chemistry, and process.
Mm-hmm.
And I think that’s not true, not just in this particular industry, but I think in the industry, and the example you gave is a perfect example of that. I want to work with people that I like and who like me, who know exactly what they’re doing, have done it before, and you know, I’m fairly confident that it’s repeatable and it’s going to succeed.
Mm-hmm.
And if you have those two things, then you can overcome price, you can overcome delivery, you can overcome a lot of other things because it’s those two things that matter the most. And in the example you just gave, that might be the tipping point that decides whether this prospect is going to become a customer or not, because, hey, I walked out there with the CEO, he knew folks’ names, they were talking about their kids, and everybody seemed to really enjoy working there. And that matters, that matters certainly to customers as well.
And I think a customer could walk out going, hey, these guys, they don’t have a couple of things that we need, but I feel that they have the right team that they’re going to figure it out.
That’s right.
And they could go into a facility that has everything that they need. But the culture is horrible. And they’re like, this thing could fall apart tomorrow.
That’s it. Yeah.
They have all the widgets in place and everything but the people just don’t care as much as you know, company B.
That’s right. And that caring and trusting and just knowing that you know what, I don’t think anything’s ever going to happen, but if it does, I could just tell by walking around here that these people are going to go way beyond doing whatever it is that they can do to make this right. And that makes a huge difference.
Right? You brought up HR before, but in HR, I mean, that’s their whole job, right? And there’s an importance of employee engagement and spending resources to measure it and things like that.
Yeah.
What does employee engagement mean to you? And why, why does that matter so much?
People think I’m a heretic when I say this, but I’m not a huge fan of employee engagement surveys or just the concept of the importance of engagement in general, mostly because I don’t know how to define it. You can tell me what you think it is. I can tell you what I think it is. HR can tell you. Five other HR people, 10 other companies, and 15 different engagement survey providers can all tell you a different definition of engagement. And so that means that nobody knows and agrees on exactly what it is and there’s no common way to measure it. So, if you think about blood pressure, we know what that is and there ain’t but one way to measure it and we all agree on that. Engagement is not like that. Despite that, organizations are spending a whole lot of time, money, and resources measuring that and making decisions based on that. And without truly even really knowing what it means and everybody agreeing on that and without truly understanding whether how they’re measuring it is the right way to measure it. So, for example, these engagement surveys, you’ve taken these things, a lot of people have taken these things. Usually, the attitude is, I’m going to get in here, I’m going to take this thing as fast as I can, I’m going to tell them exactly what it is that they want to hear so they will leave me alone. Right? So automatically out of the gate, the data is going to be flawed. And then on top of that, it is a rational process. Here are 20 questions, answer them one to five, I agree, I disagree, and somewhere in the middle. If you have any other thoughts, put them down here in this empty space.
Mm-hmm.
So, it’s all a rational process that you end up with a bunch of rational results. Flawed or not, that’s only half of what matters. The other half is the emotional stuff. So, if I’m only allowed to answer one to five and the average answer that everybody gave is a three, the first thing I want to do is go out and ask employees, all right, everybody said on a one to five, this is a three. Why do you think it’s a three?
Mm-hmm.
Is it a three? Is it really a two? What could make it a four? We don’t ask about any of that stuff on those engagement surveys. And so, you’re only getting half of what employees ought to be sharing about why this number is what it is. Here’s the emotional context around why that number is. And then together, now you’ve got a better picture. Not totally accurate, but certainly better than just rational numbers.
Well, and I think employee engagement, you can see if your employees are engaged or not. If you have a Christmas dinner, you have 100 employees and 25 people show up and those 25 people show up alone, not with their families.
Right.
You have a huge problem.
And so do they, maybe.
Yeah.
It shows up at the Christmas party, but it also shows up in the environment.
Sure, absolutely.
So, it shows up in quality. It shows up safety. It shows up on sick time. It shows up in turnover. I mean, it shows up in a bunch of things that the organization is already measuring. And people go, well, we have really high engagement, but we have really high turnover too. Why is that? I was like, people are lying to you. That’s why it is. They’re telling you things are great while they’re trying to get out of here as fast as they can.
Well, do you find when companies have high turnover, have you experienced that they’re actually doing exit interviews? And if they are, they really listening and implementing the reasons that people are leaving if people are being genuine.
Yeah, I would say maybe half the organizations, no matter what kind of industry or whether it’s professional or hourly or whatever the workforce might look about, half are actually doing exit interviews and maybe 5 % of those are looking at those results.
Mm-hmm.
And what’s always funny to me is that they’ll be the first to call up and go, we’re getting slammed on glass doors. Is there anything you can do about that? Well, there’s two things. One, you can tell everybody who still works there to go to Glassdoor and say, this is the best place in the history of the planet. Everybody should work here. And that’s exactly what it’ll look like if you did. Or you can go in there and look at all the comments and see that, I don’t know, making up a number, 40 % of these people are mad because this one particular leader is no good. So why don’t we fix the bad leader first?
Well, that’s such a good point. So many companies will hold on to a toxic individual and it could be one person that ruins 50.
And the excuse is always, well, they deliver. Well, I’m sure they do.
Sure.
But what is that costing us? I mean, that’s costing us way more than what a delivery measurement is.
That’s it. So, you brought up glass doors. I’m not familiar with that.
It’s a place, kind of like, you use Yelp.
Yep.
I should go to this Chinese restaurant or not and then here’s all the different rankings.
Right.
It was great or it was terrible and like, no, it’s kind of helpful but it’s mostly amusing. Glassdoor is the same way, you can go on there, you know, I do work here, or I used to work there and, you know, talk about both experiences.
Mm-hmm.
You can rate the culture or the engagement or the leadership and one to five kind of star ratings and things like that. And it really just like Yelp, it’s just turned into a place where people can just go and vent mostly because they’re mad for whatever reason.
Hmm, interesting.
But the HR people and senior leaders especially really focus on that because they think that recruits are looking at that and taking it more seriously than they are. They are looking at it the same way you and I would look at Yelp.
Mm-hmm.
But I’ve been to 50 Chinese restaurants in my life. I don’t know if this person has been to that many, so just because they say it’s terrible, why would I trust him? I don’t even know who they are. So, I think people look at that less than they used to. The novelty’s kind of worn off, but not for the senior leaders and HR people. They just go nuts over that. And it feels like to me, when they say that and then I get access to their exit interview information, it’s all the same stuff in the exit interview. So, it doesn’t even ever have to be public on Glassdoor. People are telling you that on their way out the door and there’s your opportunity to fix it before it even shows up on Glassdoor.
Yeah. What are some of the most important questions folks should be asking in an exit interview?
I think the biggest one is why, which sounds obvious and I’m sure that people are kind of asking a version of that, but I don’t know that they’re asking it multiple times until they get to the real reason why. Why? Well, the place down the street pays more and that’s important to me. Why? Well, I’ve got kids and why? Like keep asking it until you get to, you can’t ask why anymore, then that is the real reason.
Mm-hmm.
And because of the way HR works, nobody’s going to spend time doing that, even if they’re doing it in person. They’re just not going to spend time to do that. So, they don’t ever really understand why. And when they don’t, they usually think it has to do with pay. And if you look at all the surveys, pay is like 10 or 11 on the list. There are nine or 10 other things ahead of it for what why is. Usually, it’s a broken relationship with a manager who’s allowed to act like a fool whenever they want to.
Mm-hmm.
That’s easy to fix. I think companies, they have as much turnover as they want to accept, personally.
Do you feel that that’s the number one reason that people leave a company as their manager or poor leader? It is the number one.
It is the number, yep. In every HR survey, small HR companies, large HR, globally, everywhere around the planet, the number one reason people leave is because there’s a broken relationship with their manager. It is not the number one reason why those managers leave though, because they don’t ever leave.
Huh.
They stay there and then there’s just a revolving door of people who are saying the same thing and nothing ever gets done about it.
That’s interesting.
Which causes everybody else to leave. Like, this is how the place is going to be, I don’t want to stay here. I don’t even report to that guy.
Right. Do you think that it could be that the manager is toxic or do you think that it’s because the manager is putting up with other employees who are toxic and they don’t want to be around those people and then it’s ultimately the manager’s responsibility but they’re still leaving.
Yeah, it’s probably a combination of those things and a bunch of other things, but I think the common thread through all of them is regardless of what your role is or what your title is, the goal for everybody in the organization is to think and act and be a leader. And so sometimes managers go, well, I’m not really a leader. I’m not empowered to do anything about this. I’ve got to put up with all this stuff and as a result, I’m now mean and disgruntled and I take it out on everybody around me.
Mm-hmm.
That’s not how leaders act. And so, if you want a culture that is reflective of your values and what you and your employees hold dear, then your culture is only going to be as good as whatever it is you tolerate. And if you tolerate that, then that’s what you’re going to get in return. And if you don’t tolerate that, then you have to help managers become better leaders, or you have to help them out the door. It’s that simple.
Yeah. And there’s a book that I was given, and I wish I had it sitting right here with me. It’s in my bag. I can’t remember something about asking questions that changed my life and I’ll figure it out and I’ll have Luke put it in our description of this, it’s a really good book for managers and relationships period and it was given to me.
Yeah, that’d be great.
It is really interesting. And it talks about a guy struggling as a manager and he felt like he had to have all the answers. And then he had a team that was failing and made it ask the right questions that changed my life. But we’ll figure it out and get it posted.
It sounds amazing.
But it’s a phenomenal book and it changed his team. It changed his life. It changes personal life. Really good book. So, we’ll post that. Luke posts that book.
Yeah, I think. Good reminder there.
Yeah.
I think that falls into the category of like empathy, like, you know, a lot of leaders and HR feel like that’s very important, but it also feels kind of soft like that. What does that even mean?
Yeah.
But I think it falls into that category because what you’re describing are leaders who are confident and comfortable enough to be empathetic and to be humble and to admit that they don’t know everything, but they’re willing to learn anything. And I think too, we see this a lot in communications where there’s some big communication that needs to happen, and then the CorpComs team put something together and then they roll out a bunch of talking points for managers to use. All right, we’ve got this big announcement and we’re going to have to cascade it and you’re all going to have to do a lot of the heavy lifting for us. So, here are some talking points.
Mm-hmm.
And in my experience, what those managers need is not just that content. They need confidence to be able to do that because to your point, the number one thing they’re scared of is, all right, they’ve given me everything on here, including some FAQs, but what if they ask a question I don’t know?
Right? Yeah.
Then there’s your answer. I don’t know, but I’ll go and find them. But they’re so scared of that. So, the comms team and HR to a certain degree is spending so much time giving them that content and next to no time giving the confidence on how to deliver that content that everybody knows the worst fear is not knowing what the answer is.
Mm-hmm.
There just needs to be more help around helping these managers be better leaders. And it starts with things like that.
Yeah. And it raps and you start doing it. It feels like anything else. It’s like being unconsciously incompetent.
Yeah, that’s right.
And you don’t know that you’re bad. You’re just bad. And then you get to the point where you’re consciously incompetent and you’re conscious that you’re bad.
That’s right.
And then you’re consciously competent and unconsciously competent.
Well, that’s why you have Ohio State has their third-string quarterback running the two-minute drill during practice every day because one day he’s going to be out there and has to do it and the time to learn it and then.
Yeah. And we proved that when we won a national championship a few years ago and we put the third string. What was that guy’s name. 12 Gauge. His nickname was 12 Gauge something.
Yeah, now I remember who you’re talking about.
But he got in and he won the national championship.
That’s right because he was prepared to win the net, you know?
Absolutely.
That’s exactly right.
Yeah.
So, you can’t expect them to run the two-minute drill if they don’t practice it every day.
Absolutely. I just looked that book up because it was driving me bonkers.
Yeah, good.
Change your questions, change your life. 10 Powerful Tools for a Life and Work or 10 Powerful Tools for Life and Work. The author is Marlene Adams.
I love that. I’ll have to check that out. Yeah.
Very good book. You talk about an exercise that you do. What employees want a focus group and how is that different than an employee focus group? You know, so many companies already do.
Well first of all, if you aren’t doing focus groups, you should. And secondly, if you are doing them, then you’re doing more than most. It’s baffling to me because marketing, for example, wouldn’t come up with a new product and launch it into the market without doing extensive focus groups with whomever the target customers are going to be. So why would we think any differently about the people who work there?
Mm-hmm.
And the example I gave earlier about, you know, all right, you’ve got these rational answers from your engagement survey. Now let’s get the emotional context around that. That’s what focus groups are really good for. If you are doing them yourselves, it’s better than not doing them at all, but you also run into the same problem. Employees are not going to be completely honest with you solely because you work there. That’s just human nature. I’m not going to tell you the truth. Ultimately, you’re between me and my paycheck, so I have to be careful what I’m going to say in front of you. But they’ll talk to third parties, me, somebody else, even when they know that I’m just going to turn around and tell them exactly what you told me and you could have just told them directly, even knowing that they don’t care. They want those people to know that. They just don’t want to be the one to tell them. So, the value of bringing anybody in to do these focus groups, I think, is really important because it’s not somebody from the company. The more casual and conversational they are, the better. Don’t write down anybody’s name. You don’t even need to know anybody’s name.
Right.
You just want a collection of employees to talk generally about whatever things are. Don’t record anything. Just have to be normal, casual. Ideally, it doesn’t even need to be on-site. It could be down the street at Applebee’s if it needs to be.
Mm-hmm.
Wherever it is, where they are most comfortable, just do that. And then just ask a bunch of questions and keep asking why and make sure that everybody gets a chance to weigh in and not, a couple of people don’t dominate. It is absolutely fascinating the kinds of stuff that you’ll get back, all of which is rich and helpful and usually directional, not just what the issues are, but we’ve all talked amongst ourselves about how we need to fix these things. Like there’s just a gold mine in there that is easy enough to mine and isn’t all that expensive.
Yeah.
And so, it’s just a perfect complement to things like, well, is this really what you meant on the engagement survey? Or it could just be something totally separate, you know? So, who better tell you really what’s going on than the people who are out there doing it all?
Sure. Do you find people are more open than a group or in private?
They’re more open in a small group, no more than five or seven.
Okay.
They are less open if it’s more than that because sometimes they might not know everybody in there and then some people tend to dominate. Or it’s too big and people are like, can I speak now or not speak now?
Right.
So, five to seven is right. One-on-one is also not good. Especially if it’s a third party, it just feels like, all right, somebody’s been sent here to spy and now I’m just as closed as I would be if the CEO was asking me, this is a weird dynamic and, you know, that doesn’t work either.
Sure. Yeah, that makes sense.
So, people are comfortable in smaller groups, you know, just like most teams, most high-performing teams are the ones that are small to midsize for that very reason.
Yeah. That definitely makes sense.
Yeah.
And it is interesting how shut off people will be around an authority figure. And they will give an answer, you know, like the Milgram theory, you’re laughing, so I’m sure you’re familiar with the Milgram theory.
Yes.
That’s such an interesting theory to me about what a person will do. I mean, they kill people if an authoritative person tells them to do it.
Yeah.
I mean, they’ll do things that are totally against their own belief in their own moral compass. And for the folks that don’t know what the Milgram theory is, there’s a study done about Nazi Germany. And it was about why Nazis would do things that they would do, even though it was against their own belief. It was against their own morals. They set up a study where they put two people in a chair and one person would ask the other person the answer, and if they got it wrong the person asked the answer would shock the other person.
Mm-hmm.
And in the beginning, it was kind of a placebo and there’s an actor in the other seat and maybe it was the entire study. I can’t remember. It’s been so long since I’ve read it. Maybe the entire thing was a placebo, but they would keep cranking it up and it would get to a point where they were physically hurting the person that they were shocking.
Yeah.
And there’s an authoritative person standing over the other person. They’re like, no, you got to do it. This is your job. You shock that person, and they would do it.
I just kept doing it.
And they would do it and it would get to the highest level. And 100 % of the time the person would do it even if they would be in tears doing it. And it was just such an interesting study to me that people will do whatever somebody of an authoritative stature tells them to do and it was just wild.
Yeah, it is crazy like that, you know, and that goes back to what we were talking about earlier. If leaders, however, we want to define that, are seen as being authoritative figures, and what you just described is true, then what is the opposite of that?
Yeah.
If they have that much power in a negative way, they also have that much power in a positive way.
Absolutely.
So, walking around the plant, having these conversations all the things we talked about earlier.
Yep.
Has that same kind of positive effect as the example you just gave, has a negative effect?
Yep.
And then on top of that, what it also does is demonstrate to every other frontline supervisor or shift supervisor or manager, anybody else in that facility, this is important.
Mm-hmm.
And this is how the biggest leader in this organization is spending his or her time. And if I want to get ahead, I need to start mirroring that, not just aping it or monkeying it. But also, actually doing it and getting good at it and caring about it. Because so much of leadership communications is symbolic.
Yeah.
And so, when a leader is modeling that behavior, people just pick up on it naturally because they’re human beings.
Yeah, it’s contagious.
And so, if you want more of it, do more of it.
Yeah, absolutely. It’s contagious. So last question. What makes things better, both for the manufacturing companies and their employees?
Wow. We talked about what? 10,000 things today that people could do.
Yeah.
Some were harder than others, some were really simple. I think to me the torque wrench magic wand is truly wanting to.
Yep.
Like truly wanting, not just HR says I must do this. I’ll get out there and do it. Or the employees are like, we’re supposed to come in on Saturday. I guess I’ll do it. But then, you know, their minds elsewhere.
Yeah.
So, I think for both groups, it’s just truly wanting things to be better. And if people truly want that together, then they will figure out a way to make that happen. Some of that’s communication, some of its leadership, some of its process and change, and a bunch of other things. There are a lot of ways that that happens, but the way for it to happen and have the absolute best result is because everybody truly wants it to.
Yep. And people feel that.
Yeah.
People feel you’re talking to them because they think that you think that they need to.
Yeah.
Or if it’s genuine, that’s two different animals.
Yeah, that’s right. And you’ve been in those meetings. Hey, corporate said that I’m supposed to tell you this. Well, why? I don’t know. They said to hear down, I’m supposed to read these things, and here’s what I’m supposed to, versus,
Yeah, they are reading off a script.
hey, we’ve got this new market we’re going into with these fantastic new products, some of which you all helped us develop. So, let’s talk about what that means and why it’s important. They see that. That means that’s just, I’m reading this cause HR told me to, you know, that’s just, see if you truly want to, then everybody feels that and it’s contagious. Like you said.
Yeah, well, it is interesting. And I have been in those conversations where you’re sitting there listening to somebody in there and they will literally say that they told me to. I don’t believe in it, but I have my marching orders and already everyone’s checked out.
That’s right.
But that’s what that person wants, right? They don’t. I mean, they’re doing what they’re being told to do, but they’re also saying this isn’t important and I don’t believe in it.
Yeah.
Therefore, we’re not going to do any of this.
There’s a huge difference between compliance and caring, right?
Absolutely. Well, for the people who want to reach out to you and ask questions, how do they reach out to you, Jason?
Yeah, well, you know, I packed up my fax machine so they can’t use that. So, what they can do is go to jasonanthoine.com/mfgmonkey. There are some free tips for questions you can ask in focus groups and when to ask those types of questions. There are also links to some other things, helpful information, the kinds of work that I do, and the kind of who I do it for, including a link to my own podcast, called Riding Shotgun.
Cool.
I’ve spent my whole career riding Shotgun with leaders. And so now I can take all the experience and let other people ride Shotgun with me while I talk about all the stories. So, all of that is on jasonanthoine.com/mfgmonkey. And you know, if you’ve got a question, you’re worrying over something, you’re dealing with a complex situation and you don’t know who to, just reach out, email, call, whatever. The meter stopped running, if you have a problem and you think I can help you with it, I’m glad to talk with you. So, you know, don’t hold back if there’s something I can do to help.
Very good. And we’ll put a link in the description as well.
Great.
Because if you’re like me, you don’t know how to spell Anthoine.
No. I think I was probably 11 before I knew how to spell Anthoine.
Awesome. Well, I had a ton of fun talking to you and I appreciate it.
Me too, Dustin. Yeah.
And there’s a ton of valuable information. And if there’s one thing that you pull out of any of our podcasts, that’s the mission accomplished in my book.
Yeah, well thank you. This has been such a great conversation. I love talking about this. You know, we started by saying, I do this because I’m passionate about it. I hope that comes through. It just matters. What people do all day long matters and there are plenty of ways to make it better. So, let’s do that.
Can’t agree more. Thanks, buddy.
Okay. Thank you.
Yep, bye-bye.
Bye.
For more insightful conversations like this, visit MFGMonkey.com. Listen to this episode and many others on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your favorite podcast platform.